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free and JUNCTION drives

Discussion in 'Support' started by Stephen Howe, Mar 31, 2011.

  1. Stephen Howe

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    Hi, using 12.10.58

    I have been told "free up some space on m:\TVPCDev"

    The snag is I look at M drive right directory I see (a few things snipped)

    23/06/2010 16:27 <JUNCTION>3721Data [Volume{c3b947aa-79c1-11df-b439-0050568102e1}\]
    17/03/2011 17:45 AEDATA
    12/11/2010 12:48 CADATA
    21/02/2008 15:54 <JUNCTION>RADATA [Volume{641bd2a5-e932-410f-b0e3-829ff1ca9b27}\]
    18/03/2011 12:17 Research
    02/08/2010 12:28 <JUNCTION>TVPCDev [Volume{c3492014-ab0c-4017-92a6-929589b79502}\]
    26/10/2007 14:51 <JUNCTION>UserData [Volume{e557c7e0-fd42-409f-904b-57d240e24b25}\

    Now when I do

    FREE M:

    I see

    140,651,724,800 bytes total disk space
    134,856,507,392 bytes used
    5,795,217,408 bytes free

    But if I map, say, T drive to M:\TVPCDev, do

    FREE T:

    I see the same figures which surprises me.
    FREE is not seeing through the JUNCTION.
    Can I get it to do so?

    In the documentation it says, FREE supports OpenAFS names.

    So then using TRUENAME on M drive, I have tried passing to FREE, a fully qualified OpenAFS name (trying the name of the drive and the Volume+GUID name). No matter what I do, I just cant get the FREE to reflect what the true space is on TVPCDEV. Perhaps it does work, I just dont have the syntax right.

    DIR also does the same thing.
    If I change to deeply nested subdirectory off M:\TVPCDEV, the "bytes free" I see is not the "bytes free" on M:\TVPCDEV, but the "bytes free" on M:\

    Is it possible to configure TCC so that I see the true bytes free for subdirectories off Junction drives?
    I am off to hunt around TCC options...

    Thanks

    Stephen Howe
     
  2. thedave

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    On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 17:55:55 -0400, Stephen Howe <>
    was claimed to have wrote:


    Keep in mind that this points to the currently selected path on M:,
    "free M:\" might give you what you wanted.
     
  3. rconn

    rconn Administrator
    Staff Member

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    Not sure I understand what you're asking -- FREE *is* seeing through the junction, and it's displaying the free space on the M: drive. What did you want it to do?

    Are you trying to get the free space in a subdirectory? That cannot be done (and would be meaningless in Windows). If you're just trying to get the disk space used by a directory tree, use DIR /U2.

    How could you have "bytes free" for a subdirectory?
     
  4. Stephen Howe

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    Sorry Rex, that is my bad explanation. I think I mean the reverse - not report the free space on the parent volume but instead report the free space on the child volume - the mounted drive.

    Because in this case M:\TVPCDev is a mounted drive.
    It is possible to have 5GB free on M:\ but be running out of space on the mounted drive. I know this because I have seen the output of some 3rd party utility that our IT Services runs and it shows what TCC's FREE M:\
    except it shows the true space for each mounted drive and %-wise, how full each one is. Both CMD.EXE and TCC.EXE seem to report the free space on the parent drive when you do DIR (and FREE in TCC's case), which does not let you know the true situation on the mounted drive.

    I did try mapping a drive letter to M:\TVPCDev, hoping that a DIR or FREE on that drive would show the true situation, but it doesnt.
    What happens is that you see the space on the parent volume, not the child volume (mounted drive).

    I am interested in finding out the total space on any child volume and how much space is left. I am a little surprised that DIR and FREE does not do that, but CMD.EXE does not either (jsut recently checked) and that would be TCC being compatible.

    A quick check reveals that Windows Explorer does not do so either, which leaves me scratching my head - how are you supposed to know how full child volumes are - if the only figures reported are for parent volumes?

    I will try DIR /U2

    Thanks

    Stephen Howe
     
  5. Stephen Howe

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    <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">Hi</v:shapetype>
    <v:shapetype stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"></v:shapetype>
    <v:shapetype stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">Attached is a JPG file which shows a picture of various volumes at work and how full they are. I want to be able to see the same information from TCC.</v:shapetype>
    <v:shapetype stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">Ideally, if looking at a directory within a mounted volume, DIR and FREE should report the space on the mounted volume (and any other TCC command affected by this issue) and not the underlying parent volume it is attached to.</v:shapetype>
    <v:shapetype stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"></v:shapetype>
    <v:shapetype stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">I realise that this is non-Windows compatible, but I am Research mode, trying to work out how, if you had Windows only, you could get that information.</v:shapetype>
    <v:shapetype stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">The current, "report only free space on parent volume" does not seem useful.</v:shapetype>
    <v:shapetype stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"></v:shapetype>
    <v:shapetype stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">Does all this make sense?</v:shapetype>
    <v:shapetype stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"></v:shapetype>
    <v:shapetype stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">Thanks</v:shapetype>
    <v:shapetype stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"></v:shapetype>
    <v:shapetype stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">Stephen Howe</v:shapetype>
    <v:shapetype stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"></v:shapetype>
     

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  6. Steve Fabian

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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Stephen Howe
    To: ESFabian@zenge.org
    Sent: Friday, 2011. April 1. 08:27
    Subject: RE: [Support-t-2740] Re: free and JUNCTION drives


    referrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">Hi
    referrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">
    referrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">Attached is a JPG file which shows a picture of various volumes at work and how full they are. I want to be able to see the same information from TCC.
    referrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">Ideally, if looking at a directory within a mounted volume, DIR and FREE should report the space on the mounted volume (and any other TCC command affected by this issue) and not the underlying parent volume it is attached to.
    referrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">
    referrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">I realise that this is non-Windows compatible, but I am Research mode, trying to work out how, if you had Windows only, you could get that information.
    referrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">The current, "report only free space on parent volume" does not seem useful.
    referrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">
    referrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">Does all this make sense?
    referrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">
    referrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">Thanks
    referrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">
    referrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">Stephen Howe
    referrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">

    Attached to this message is Volumes.jpg



    REX:
    My response is not to the substance of the above post (which I figured out with a great deal of difficulty, and with which I agree in principle), but to the ugly format in which it was delivered via email: interspersed with the message text were a host of mangled HTML tags. I am responding using plain-vanilla Outlook Express.
    --
    Steve
     
  7. samintz

    samintz Scott Mintz

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    Steve,

    There is a user setting in the forum
    where you can specify the format of the email you receive - HTML or plain
    text. I have experimented with both. If you specify plain text,
    there are some advantages in that 90% of text comes through in a readable
    fashion - including things like angle brackets. However, when anyone
    publishes an HTML post, it gets delivered with all the embedded HTML gobble-de-gook.

    On the other hand if you specify HTML,
    you can see all the nicely formatted HTML emails and posts (including things
    likes DIR screen shots in color). But HTML email tends to lose the
    special characters like angle brackets. Someone in this forum (Charles
    maybe?) has a screen capture tool that captures the text in HTML. When
    he published those screen captures in the forum they always came through
    as HTML gibberish with a plain text setting but beautifully with HTML.

    It's a trade-off. And the "issue"
    can really only be solved by forcing everyone to use plain text.

    -Scott


    Steve Fabian <> wrote on
    04/01/2011 09:08:46 AM:


    I



     
  8. Stephen Howe

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    Sorry Steve I do apologise.
    I am in text mode now.

    The problem is I cannot see the HTML.

    In the old days using WordPerfect 5.1 & 6.0, there was a mode which would show you the formatting it was applying.

    Now on using Microsoft Outlook, Word, the formatting is hidden from you and I cannot see what is going on. And frequently if I paste formatted content from somewhere else, Microsoft Outlook double spaces words. I find I am perpetually fighting the intellisense options etc.

    So I revert to plain text, because at least I have control.

    Cheers

    Stephen Howe




    My response is not to the substance of the above post (which I figured out with a great deal of difficulty, and with which I agree in principle), but to the ugly format in which it was delivered via email: interspersed with the message text were a host of mangled HTML tags. I am responding using plain-vanilla Outlook Express.
    --
    Steve[/QUOTE]
     
  9. Stephen Howe

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    Just as a further comment, I have found Microsoft''s support article on this:

    Disk Space Reporting Does Not Include Junction Point Targets
    http://support.microsoft.com/kb/197000

    But I find Microsoft's recommendations inadequate.

    MS says on a volume (say C:) that includes child volumes,

    dir c:\ /s

    will give the total space + free space across the volume and child volumes.

    But this is poor. It amounts to a grand total.
    If you have 2+ child volumes, you have no idea of the breakdown of diskspace.
    One of those child volumes could be full - what I wanted to find out in the first place.

    Cheers

    Stephen Howe
     
  10. thedave

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    On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 17:08:04 -0400, Stephen Howe <>
    was claimed to have wrote:


    You can do this by specifying the volume you want, no?

    For example:


    Volume in drive C is unlabeled Serial number is 102f:fea3
    Directory of C:\Users\Dave\Music\i*

    1/22/2011 12:08 <JUNCTION> ____D___L_____ iTunes
    [F:\Junctions\C-Users-Dave-Music-iTunes]
    0 bytes in 0 files and 1 dir
    59,306,012,672 bytes free



    Volume in drive C is unlabeled Serial number is 102f:fea3
    127,928,365,056 bytes total disk space
    68,622,204,928 bytes used
    59,306,160,128 bytes free
    53.6 % in use



    Volume in drive C is unlabeled Serial number is 102f:fea3
    640,132,575,232 bytes total disk space
    518,096,457,728 bytes used
    122,036,117,504 bytes free
    80.9 % in use


    However, it's worth noting that "free m:" is ambiguous since it refers
    to the current working directory of M: (which may or may not be the
    root) but free m:\ will give you the root, free m:\something will give
    you "something"'s available space:


    Volume in drive C is unlabeled Serial number is 102f:fea3
    640,132,575,232 bytes total disk space
    518,096,457,728 bytes used
    122,036,117,504 bytes free
    80.9 % in use


    Volume in drive C is unlabeled Serial number is 102f:fea3
    127,928,365,056 bytes total disk space
    68,622,278,656 bytes used
    59,306,086,400 bytes free
    53.6 % in use
     
  11. Stephen Howe

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    Hi Dave

    Thanks for the help.
    Your examples some close to what Microsoft claims.

    I only ever see the parent volume's statistics, regardless of what I specify. It differs from your examples. My attempts dont get the same results as you do.
    Perhaps, it is "rights" issue and TCC is being denied access to the child volumes?

    [M:\]free m:\

    Volume in drive M is Taris Serial number is 2cab:28d3
    140,651,724,800 bytes total disk space
    134,975,324,160 bytes used
    5,676,400,640 bytes free
    96 % in use

    [M:\]free m:\TVPCDev\

    Volume in drive M is Taris Serial number is 2cab:28d3
    140,651,724,800 bytes total disk space
    134,975,324,160 bytes used
    5,676,400,640 bytes free
    96 % in use

    [M:\]free m:\TVPCDev

    Volume in drive M is Taris Serial number is 2cab:28d3
    140,651,724,800 bytes total disk space
    134,975,324,160 bytes used
    5,676,400,640 bytes free
    96 % in use

    [M:\]cd \TVPCDev

    [M:\TVPCDev]free m:

    Volume in drive M is Taris Serial number is 2cab:28d3
    140,651,724,800 bytes total disk space
    134,975,324,160 bytes used
    5,676,400,640 bytes free
    96 % in use


    However I happen to know that M:\TVCPDEV as a volume, has size about
    138,501,957,877.76

    and if I do

    [M:\TVPCDev]dir /s /u2

    Volume in drive M is Taris Serial number is 2cab:28d3

    Total for: M:\TVPCDev\*
    131,321,648,645 bytes in 77,135 files and 615 dirs 134,740,901,888 bytes allocated
    5,676,400,640 bytes free

    which means subtracting the allocated figure, we have 3.5Gb free on M:\TVPCDev\

    That "5,676,400,640 bytes free" is misleading.
    It is the amount free on the Parent volume (M:\), not M:\TVPCDev\

    While I am understanding better, I still dont fully why my results differs from yours.

    Thanks

    Stephen Howe
     
  12. gwgaston

    gwgaston Senior IT Security Consultant

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    Stephen,

    Try the attached and see if it reports what you are looking for.

    --
    Gerald W. Gaston
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Jim Cook

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    I haven't had double drives to test this with in a while, but I thought
    standard dir, and also I believe my timedir do show the proper free space if
    you start in a junction / mount point.

    I keep mine at jcook.info/timedir and if you use "timedir /s /u
    <mountpoint>" I believe you'll see the right summar.

    On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 09:59, Stephen Howe <> wrote:




    --
    Jim Cook
    2011 Tuesday: 4/4, 6/6, 8/8, 10/10, 12/12 and 5/9, 9/5, 7/11, 11/7.
    Next year they're Wednesday.
     
  14. thedave

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    On Sat, 02 Apr 2011 12:59:17 -0400, Stephen Howe <>
    was claimed to have wrote:


    How about CMD? It shows the same behaviour here.

    C:\Users\Dave\Music>dir i*
    Volume in drive C has no label.
    Volume Serial Number is 102F-FEA3

    Directory of C:\Users\Dave\Music

    01/22/2011 12:08 PM <JUNCTION> iTunes
    [\??\F:\Junctions\C-Users-Dave-Music-iTunes]
    0 File(s) 0 bytes
    1 Dir(s) 55,929,315,328 bytes free

    C:\Users\Dave\Music>cd iTunes

    C:\Users\Dave\Music\iTunes>dir
    Volume in drive C has no label.
    Volume Serial Number is 102F-FEA3

    Directory of C:\Users\Dave\Music\iTunes

    04/05/2011 07:12 PM <DIR> .
    04/05/2011 07:12 PM <DIR> ..
    01/22/2011 11:53 AM <DIR> Album Artwork
    03/19/2009 05:14 PM 211,871 iT.tmp
    04/04/2011 11:13 AM 98,304 iTunes Library Extras.itdb
    04/02/2011 08:20 AM 3,047,424 iTunes Library Genius.itdb
    04/05/2011 07:12 PM 638,564 iTunes Library.itl
    01/22/2011 11:58 AM <DIR> iTunes Music
    04/05/2011 07:12 PM 1,750,505 iTunes Music Library.xml
    04/05/2011 01:18 PM <DIR> Mobile Applications
    03/03/2011 02:19 PM <DIR> Previous iTunes Libraries
    04/04/2011 11:13 AM 8 sentinel
    6 File(s) 5,746,676 bytes
    6 Dir(s) 84,667,215,872 bytes free
     
  15. jaltman

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    Stephen,

    Based on the date of this post I am quite sure that the OpenAFS client version you were using does not have the native AFS redirector but instead is using the AFS SMB server. The AFS SMB server must play by the rules of Windows SMB shares which state that a share can only refer to a single volume. While the AFS SMB server can specify the reparse point flag on an AFS mount point, it is unable to permit reparse points to be opened as reparse point objects nor can it report the name of the AFS volume it refers to to the application. As a result, applications such as take command can report the mount point as a junction but can't distinguish the volumes on either side of it.

    The OpenAFS 1.7.x series adds a native AFS redirector which does permit reparse points to be opened and queried with FSCTL_GET_REPARSE_POINT. Microsoft has allocated an OpenAFS reparse point tag value which is used to report AFS mount point and symlink targets. I've given Rex the documentation on the data format which will permit him to query the volume information for the correct volume.

    Another approach tcc.exe could use is evaluate the AFS cell and volume for the target path and query Windows for the volume information on the path \\afs\cell#volume\.

    Jeffrey Altman

    </junction></junction></junction></junction>
     
  16. swish

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    I'm having the same issue. Running on Windows 7, both CMD.EXE and 4NT 8.02.106 Windows Vista [Version 6.1.7601] report the correct "bytes free" value for a mounted volume (NTFS junction):

    commands executed:
    cd junction_foldername
    dir

    CMD.EXE: 17 Dir(s) 20,540,534,784 bytes free

    4NT8: 0 bytes in 1 file and 17 dirs 0 bytes allocated
    20,540,534,784 bytes free


    TCC 13.04.63 x64 Windows 7 [Version 6.1.7601]: 0 bytes in 1 file and 17 dirs
    18,051,829,760 bytes free

    18GB is incorrect. That's the number of bytes free on the parent volume (C:\), not C:\junction_foldername which should have about 20GB free.

    I've looked but can't find any TCC option that might affect this (am I blind?) :)
     

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