Which version to upgrade to?

Just Another Joe · 2010-01-16

I've used JPSoftware since '91 or '92, beginning with 4DOS. I bought the CD Suite (4DOS, 4NT and Take Command), and later upgraded to version 6.

I am currently using 4NT 6.01.245U on XP SP2, and it has done everything I need. I also have Take Command (same version) installed, though I never use it.

However, I'm not sure whether this version will run on Windows 7 (I suspect it won't). I pre-ordered (and have received) Windows 7 professional, but haven't yet installed it. I'm not sure whether I'll be installing the 32-bit or 64-bit version, but whichever version, I definitely do want to continue using 4NT. So that's the first requirement (Windows 7 32/64 compatibility).

I wouldn't be considered a power-user as far as JPSoftware is concerned, but I would be very concerned about anything in a new version which may break (or not fit with) my current procedures. For example, I make heavy use of DESCRIPT.ION files, although on my system they are called .description in order that they be hidden files on SAMBA shares (NAS). I have both FAT32 and NTFS drives, and need .description to work on both.

So, are there any concerns I should be aware of in upgrading? And for my level of use, should I be looking at TCC/LE, TC/LE, or TC?

rconn · 2010-01-17

> I am currently using 4NT 6.01.245U on XP SP2, and it has done
> everything I need. I also have Take Command (same version) installed,
> though I never use it.
>
> However, I'm not sure whether this version will run on Windows 7 (I
> suspect it won't). I pre-ordered (and have received) Windows 7
> professional, but haven't yet installed it. I'm not sure whether I'll
> be installing the 32-bit or 64-bit version, but whichever version, I
> definitely *do* want to continue using 4NT. So that's the first
> requirement (Windows 7 32/64 compatibility).

The only version we officially support with Windows 7 is Take Command v11
(which includes 4NT, now renamed TCC).

Take Command v11 also includes a 64-bit version of TCC.

> So, are there any concerns I should be aware of in upgrading? And for
> my level of use, should I be looking at TCC/LE, TC/LE, or TC?

Try them all and see which one suits you best. TCC/LE (which is also
included in Take Command/LE) does have fewer features than 4NT v6, so if
you're dependent on any of the missing features (detailed in the v11 help)
you should go for the full version. (Also, TCC/LE and Take Command/LE are
32-bit only.)

Rex Conn
JP Software

Just Another Joe · 2010-01-17

Rex, thanks so much. I'll go for the full version, since I want 64-bit compatibility.

Just to confirm; I won't be loosing any version 6 current features, such as DESCRIPT.ION files, or others?

BobK · 2010-01-18

Can I piggy back on that question from Joe?

I too have had 4DOS from the early 90's, upgrading to 4NT 7.01 and it's served me so well I've not bothered coming here to ask questions.

But now, I've been Windowed 7 .. due to the demise of my trusty old XP.. (BTW, no one warned me of the horrors of moving a window in W7!,, they have a mind of their own now!!)..

I fortunatly had most of my software backed up to a UCB HD and began re-installing what I use and 4NT was the second (my Email was First).. the install didn't take.. a session opened, the welcome intro came up, but the session was vanilla W7 cmd .. I uninstalled to try again, but now no 'install', no 'what directory', just a new vanilla W7 cmd again.. I noted that the 4NT7 subdirectory was still in JPSOFT and assumed that prevented it from installing.. I attemped to remove the directory, but keep getting "access denied" ..
I did manage to get 4NT running by starting it off the UCB (backup) HD.. and it too cannot delete the directory. I just downloaded the TCC/LE and it too cannot delete that directory. & No, no other app is using the directory as I rebooted the system..

I googled up a lot of scenario's that sound like this, ("can't remove W7 directory") the 'hints' don't work either.

So, Though I don't like the 'new' format of TCC over the old 4NT (K.I.S.S. works for me!), but will use it if I have to. I want to know why can't W7, or 4NT or TCC remove that now empty (by the W7 Uninstall that left it)?

What do I upgrade to?

Bob K.

rconn · 2010-01-18

> Rex, thanks so much. I'll go for the full version, since I want 64-bit
> compatibility.
>
> Just to confirm; I won't be loosing any version 6 current features,
> such as DESCRIPT.ION files, or others?

Correct.

Rex Conn
JP Software

rconn · 2010-01-18

> I fortunatly had most of my software backed up to a UCB HD and began
> re-installing what I use and 4NT was the second (my Email was First)..
> the instll didn't take.. a session opened, the welcome intro came up,
> but the session was vanilla W7 cmd .. I uninstalled to try again, but
> now no 'install', no 'what directory', just a new vanilla W7 cmd
> again.. I noted that the 4NT7 subdirectory was still in JPSOFT and
> assumed that prevented it from installing.. I attemped to remove the
> directory, but keep getting "access denied" ..
> I did manage to get 4NT running by stating it off the UCB (backup) HD..
> and it too cannot delete the directory.. I just downloaded the TCC/LE
> and it too cannot delete that directory.. & No, no other app is using
> it as I rebooted the system..
>
> So, Though I don't like the 'new' format of TCC over the old 4NT
> (K.I.S.S. works for me!), I want to know why can't W7, or 4NT or TCC
> remove that now empty (by the W7 Uninstall that left it)??

Windows 7 will not permit any non-admin account to modify directories in
"\program files". You'll need to right-click on 4NT or CMD from Explorer,
and select "Run as administrator" to be granted the necessary privileges.
(Simply logging in as an administrator will *not* give you the necessary
privileges.)

Rex Conn
JP Software

Emilio III · 2010-01-18

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 08:48:41AM -0500, JP Software Forums wrote:

> Windows 7 will not permit any non-admin account to modify directories in
> "\program files". You'll need to right-click on 4NT or CMD from Explorer,
> and select "Run as administrator" to be granted the necessary privileges.
> (Simply logging in as an administrator will *not* give you the necessary
> privileges.)

IMO, this makes it useless as an operating system unless you have
enabled the local administrator account and login using it. I know the
latter is a bad idea, but don't see a reasonable alternative. Is there
any chance of a SUDO command for TCMD that works like "Run as
administrator"?

rconn · 2010-01-18

> ---Quote---
> > Windows 7 will not permit any non-admin account to modify directories
> in "\program files". You'll need to right-click on 4NT or CMD from
> Explorer, and select "Run as administrator" to be granted the necessary
> privileges.
> > (Simply logging in as an administrator will *not* give you the
> necessary privileges.)
> ---End Quote---
> IMO, this makes it useless as an operating system unless you have
> enabled the local administrator account and login using it. I know the
> latter is a bad idea, but don't see a reasonable alternative.

That won't work; logging in as an administrator does *not* give you full
administrator privileges. Only executing the task via the "Run as
administrator" option will do it.

Rex Conn
JP Software

Emilio III · 2010-01-18

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 06:25:31PM -0500, JP Software Forums wrote:

> ---Quote---
> > ---Quote---
> > > Windows 7 will not permit any non-admin account to modify directories
> > in "\program files". You'll need to right-click on 4NT or CMD from
> > Explorer, and select "Run as administrator" to be granted the necessary
> > privileges.
> > > (Simply logging in as an administrator will *not* give you the
> > necessary privileges.)
> > ---End Quote---
> > IMO, this makes it useless as an operating system unless you have
> > enabled the local administrator account and login using it. I know the
> > latter is a bad idea, but don't see a reasonable alternative.
> ---End Quote---
> That won't work; logging in as an administrator does *not* give you full
> administrator privileges. Only executing the task via the "Run as
> administrator" option will do it.

If by "an administrator" you mean a member of the administrators' group,
I agree. But for the local administrator login (uid=197108), which is
disabled by default, everything "runs as administrator". At least I
haven't found anything I couldn't do logged in that way.

dim · 2010-01-19

Emilio III said:
Is there any chance of a SUDO command for TCMD that works like "Run as administrator"?

Use the RUNAS command (this is not a TCC command, but runas.exe in your system32 directory):

Code:

RUNAS USAGE:

RUNAS [ [/noprofile | /profile] [/env] [/savecred | /netonly] ]
        /user:<username> program

RUNAS [ [/noprofile | /profile] [/env] [/savecred] ]
        /smartcard [/user:<username>] program

   /noprofile        specifies that the user's profile should not be loaded.
                     This causes the application to load more quickly, but
                     can cause some applications to malfunction.
   /profile          specifies that the user's profile should be loaded.
                     This is the default.
   /env              to use current environment instead of user's.
   /netonly          use if the credentials specified are for remote
                     access only.
   /savecred         to use credentials previously saved by the user.
                     This option is not available on Windows XP Home Edition
                     and will be ignored.
   /smartcard        use if the credentials are to be supplied from a
                     smartcard.
   /user             <username> should be in form USER@DOMAIN or DOMAIN\USER
   program         command line for EXE.  See below for examples

Examples:
> runas /noprofile /user:mymachine\administrator cmd
> runas /profile /env /user:mydomain\admin "mmc %windir%\system32\dsa.msc"
> runas /env /user:[email protected] "notepad \"my file.txt\""

NOTE:  Enter user's password only when prompted.
NOTE:  USER@DOMAIN is not compatible with /netonly.
NOTE:  /profile is not compatible with /netonly.
NOTE:  /savecred is not compatible with /smartcard.

</username></username></username>

BobK · 2010-01-19

rconn said:
Windows 7 will not permit any non-admin account to modify directories in
"\program files". You'll need to right-click on 4NT or CMD from Explorer,
and select "Run as administrator" to be granted the necessary privileges.
(Simply logging in as an administrator will *not* give you the necessary
privileges.)

Rex Conn
JP Software

I don't use Explorer so using 4NT or CMD from 'Explorer' doesn't
make sense. Is there a way to evoke 4NT or CMD with options
on the executable?

Bob

dbartt · 2010-01-20

> I don't use Explorer so using 4NT or CMD from 'Explorer' doesn't
> make sense. Is there a way to evoke 4NT or CMD with options
> on the executable?
>

You can use the RUNAS command mentioned previously in this thread or make a
shortcut to 4NT/TCC then open the shortcut's properties, go to the Compatibility
tab, and check "Run this program as an administrator" box. You'll still have to
deal with the UAC pop-up when you use the shortcut.

Dennis

BobK · 2010-01-20

rconn said:
Windows 7 will not permit any non-admin account to modify directories in
"\program files". You'll need to right-click on 4NT or CMD from Explorer,
and select "Run as administrator" to be granted the necessary privileges.

?? You mean a NON-ADMIN can do ADMIN changes merely by clicking that?!?!

rconn said:
(Simply logging in as an administrator will *not* give you the necessary
privileges.)

Surely you see the idiocy of that Microsoft requirement!!

BTW, permanently changing it in the 'Properties' as Dennis explained, made it easier to not forget! ...

Bob

rconn · 2010-01-20

> ---Quote (Originally by rconn)---
> Windows 7 will not permit any non-admin account to modify directories
> in "\program files". You'll need to right-click on 4NT or CMD from
> Explorer, and select "Run as administrator" to be granted the
> necessary privileges.
> ---End Quote---
>
> ?? You mean a NON-ADMIN can do ADMIN changes merely by clicking
> that?!?!

Yes - provided you know the admin password when the UAC popup asks you ...

Rex Conn
JP Software

dbartt · 2010-01-20

> ---Quote (Originally by rconn)---
> Windows 7 will not permit any non-admin account to modify directories in
> "\program files". You'll need to right-click on 4NT or CMD from Explorer,
> and select "Run as administrator" to be granted the necessary privileges.
> ---End Quote---
> ?? You mean a NON-ADMIN can do ADMIN changes merely by clicking that?!?!

No, "Run as administrator" is not that dumb.

An ADMIN user just has to click YES on the UAC pop-up but a NON-ADMIN user has
to supply the administrator password.

Dennis

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Welcome!

Which version to upgrade to?

Just Another Joe

rconn

Administrator

Just Another Joe

BobK

rconn

Administrator

rconn

Administrator

Emilio III

rconn

Administrator

Emilio III

dim

Dimitry Andric

BobK

dbartt

BobK

rconn

Administrator

dbartt